Legislature(1995 - 1996)
04/25/1995 09:10 AM House STA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE STATE AFFAIRS STANDING COMMITTEE
April 25, 1995
9:10 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Jeannette James, Chair
Representative Scott Ogan, Vice Chair (Present intermittently)
Representative Joe Green (Present intermittently)
Representative Ivan Ivan
Representative Brian Porter
Representative Caren Robinson
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Ed Willis
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HB 224: "An Act relating to the state plumbing code."
HEARD AND HELD
HB 270: "An Act relating to retirement incentive programs for
the public employees' retirement system and the
teachers' retirement system; relating to separation
incentives for certain state employees; and providing
for an effective date."
SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD
* HB 304: "An Act relating to geographic differentials for the
salaries of certain state employees who are not members
of a collective bargaining unit; relating to periodic
salary surveys and preparation of an annual pay
schedule regarding certain state employees; relating to
certain state aid calculations based on geographic
differentials for state employee salaries; and
providing for an effective date."
SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD
HB 210: "An Act relating to issuance of motor vehicle
registrations and titles, and to licenses and permits
to operate a motor vehicle."
SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD
(* First public hearing)
WITNESS REGISTER
REPRESENTATIVE VIC KOHRING
Alaska State Legislature
State Capitol, Room 428
Juneau, AK 99801
Telephone: 465-2186
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsored HB 224
MIKE TIBBLES, Legislative Assistant
Representative Vic Kohring
Alaska State Legislature
State Capitol, Room 428
Juneau, AK 99801
Telephone: 465-2186
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided information on HB 224
JOHN BUTLER, Owner
John's Heating Service
1235 Mill Bay Road
Kodiak, AK 99615
Telephone: 486-3706
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported amending HB 224
PAT KNOWLES, Owner
Mountain Mechanical
8427 Mentra Street
Anchorage, AK 99518
Telephone: 344-0700
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 224
DWIGHT PERKINS, Special Assistant
Office of Commissioner
Department of Labor
P.O. Box 21149
Juneau, AK 99801
Telephone: 465-2700
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 224
STEVE SHUTTLEWORTH, Building Official
City of Fairbanks
2588 Riverview Drive
Fairbanks, AK 99709
Telephone: 459-6725
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed HB 224
EUGENE RUTLAND, Executive Director
Mechanical Contractor of Fairbanks
1066 Badger Road
North Pole, AK 99705
Telephone: 456-8347
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed HB 224
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 224
SHORT TITLE: STATE PLUMBING CODE
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) KOHRING,Green
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
03/03/95 564 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
03/03/95 564 (H) LABOR & COMMERCE
03/22/95 (H) L&C AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 17
03/22/95 (H) MINUTE(L&C)
03/27/95 (H) L&C AT 05:15 PM CAPITOL 17
03/29/95 (H) L&C AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 17
04/10/95 (H) L&C AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 17
04/10/95 (H) MINUTE(L&C)
04/12/95 1281 (H) L&C RPT CS(L&C) 2DP 4NR
04/12/95 1281 (H) DP: KOTT, ROKEBERG
04/12/95 1281 (H) NR: MASEK,KUBINA,ELTON,SANDERS
04/12/95 1281 (H) ZERO FISCAL NOTE (LABOR)
04/13/95 1327 (H) STA REFERRAL ADDED
04/20/95 (H) STA AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 102
04/20/95 (H) MINUTE(STA)
04/25/95 (H) STA AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 102
BILL: HB 270
SHORT TITLE: RETIREMENT INCENTIVE PROGRAM
SPONSOR(S): RULES BY REQUEST OF THE GOVERNOR
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
03/20/95 813 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
03/20/95 814 (H) STA, L&C, FINANCE
03/20/95 814 (H) 2 FISCAL NOTES (ADM)
03/20/95 814 (H) INDETERMINATE FN (GOV/ALL DEPTS)
03/20/95 814 (H) GOVERNOR'S TRANSMITTAL LETTER
03/30/95 (H) STA AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 102
04/01/95 (H) STA AT 10:00 AM CAPITOL 102
04/01/95 (H) MINUTE(STA)
04/04/95 (H) STA AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 120
04/20/95 (H) STA AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 102
04/20/95 (H) MINUTE(STA)
04/25/95 (H) STA AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 102
BILL: HB 304
SHORT TITLE: GEOGRAPHIC PAY DIFFERENTIALS
SPONSOR(S): RULES BY REQUEST OF THE GOVERNOR
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
04/07/95 1174 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
04/07/95 1174 (H) STA, L&C, FINANCE
04/07/95 1174 (H) GOVERNOR'S TRANSMITTAL LETTER
04/07/95 1174 (H) 2 FISCAL NOTES (ADM, GOV-ALL
DEPT)
04/20/95 (H) STA AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 102
04/20/95 (H) MINUTE(STA)
04/25/95 (H) STA AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 102
BILL: HB 210
SHORT TITLE: PRIVATE MOTOR VEHICLE LICENSING/TESTING
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) VEZEY
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
03/01/95 529 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
03/01/95 529 (H) TRANSPORTATION, STATE AFFAIRS
03/17/95 (H) TRA AT 01:00 PM CAPITOL 17
03/20/95 (H) TRA AT 01:00 PM CAPITOL 17
03/20/95 (H) MINUTE(TRA)
04/19/95 (H) TRA AT 01:00 PM CAPITOL 17
04/21/95 (H) TRA AT 01:00 PM CAPITOL 17
04/22/95 1445 (H) TRA RPT CS(TRA) 1DP 3NR 1AM
04/22/95 1445 (H) DP: JAMES
04/22/95 1445 (H) NR: MACLEAN, BRICE, WILLIAMS
04/22/95 1445 (H) AM: G.DAVIS
04/22/95 1446 (H) ZERO FISCAL NOTE (DPS)
04/25/95 (H) STA AT 08:00 AM CAPITOL 102
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 95-53, SIDE A
Number 000
CHAIR JEANNETTE JAMES called the meeting to order at 9:10 a.m.
HB 224 - STATE PLUMBING CODE
REPRESENTATIVE VIC KOHRING, sponsor of HB 224, stated he and his
aide had additional information addressing the safety issue of
single wall versus double wall heat exchangers, which was a big
part of the discussion when HB 224 was last heard in House State
Affairs. He also had information to convey regarding costs. He
added his position is in support of the original version of HB 224,
the intent of which is to authorize the Department of Labor to
implement the State Uniform Plumbing Code. Although the single
wall versus double wall issue was not the intent of the bill, it
did become an issue, and he stated his aide was prepared to answer
any questions regarding that issue.
Number 056
MIKE TIBBLES, Legislative Assistant to Representative Vic Kohring,
said he had made a lot of phone calls around the state to gather
information on heat exchangers. Anchorage Plumbing and Heating
quoted $640 for their single wall unit and $626 for their double
wall unit.
CHAIR JAMES asked if those prices included installation.
MR. TIBBLES replied they did not. He continued, R.S.A. Engineering
quoted $734 for a 40-gallon single wall unit; the same unit with a
double wall coil listed at $728. Regarding the safety issue, he
mentioned the Yukon Kuskokwim Health Corporation, stating they have
been working hard to get clean water in the bush and they feel the
single wall units would jeopardize their water source and take them
a step backwards. He also noted several instances of single wall
units failing in bush communities, and one in which ethylene glycol
got into the water supply and made some individuals ill. The
evidence shows there was contamination from a faulty system.
CHAIR JAMES asked if that had occurred in an area that had 2,500
population.
MR. TIBBLES replied he did not know.
CHAIR JAMES said she was familiar with the situation, and she
believes it was not in an area with 2,500 population. She stated
this bill exempts villages with less than 2,500 population, so this
law would not have fixed the problem.
MR. TIBBLES said that might be another issue which should be
addressed, but it does show single wall systems can fail and have
caused contamination.
Number 154
MR. TIBBLES cited another example, in Anchorage, where a single
wall system had left enough sediment in the system within two years
to eat through copper pipes, prior to 1991 when the double wall
requirement went into effect. He mentioned a school in Utah which
was forced to close because of contaminated water and said he had
12 other examples. He felt there was enough evidence to warrant a
safety concern.
Number 167
CHAIR JAMES referred to a letter she had received from the
University of Alaska Fairbanks (UAF) which says of their 100 water
heaters, many of which have reached the end of their useful life,
95 percent are single wall and are heated by the campus district
steam heating system. They were asking for an exemption from the
double wall heat exchanger requirement. She read some of their
technical reasons:
1. At UAF, the domestic water has a high level of hardness.
This results in a rapid scale build up in hot water heaters.
We currently use a model of single wall heat exchanger that
automatically de-scales heat exchanger tubes during normal
operation. We have not located any replacement double wall
heat exchanger with the same de-scaling capability. The
frequent maintenance activities necessary to physically or
chemically clean the scale from the double wall heat exchanger
may result in a greater likelihood of potable water
contamination with acid or bacteria.
2. The double wall heat exchanger has lower heat transfer
efficiency. This will result in higher energy costs at UAF at
a time when funding is declining and we are operating under a
mandate to reduce energy and utility costs.
3. The steam in the district heating system at UAF is
nontoxic. It consists of water and minute quantities of an
anti-corrosion additive approved for food processing by FDA.
It is distributed at 15 psi pressure and a temperature of 290
degrees F. Condensate returned to the steam plant is
monitored 24 hours a day, 364 days a year. Any leak in a hot
water heat exchanger would result in potable water leaking
into the condensate return system - not into the potable water
system - and being quickly detected at the steam plant. Even
if steam did leak into the potable water system it would not
result in a health hazard.
Number 222
JOHN BUTLER, Owner of John's Heating Service in Kodiak, testified
via teleconference in support of Representative James' proposed
changes to HB 224 (Work Draft Z), adding the double wall units are
no good.
Number 234
PAT KNOWLES, Owner of Mountain Mechanical in Anchorage, testified
via teleconference in opposition to the use of single wall heat
exchangers, with a reminder "that's poison on the other side of
those pipes, and any way you look at it, it's not something you
want to drink."
Number 245
CHAIR JAMES presented her solution, saying she had worked with
Representatives Kohring and Rokeberg. She referred to two
amendments which Representative Rokeberg had suggested (W.2 and
W.3), pointing out they were intended to solve the problem for
Kodiak, Fairbanks, and Valdez to allow them to use the single wall
heat exchanger by inserting on page 3, following line 14 of CSHB
224(L&C), a new subsection to read: "(c) If a municipality does not
have the power to grant a waiver under (b) of this section, the
department may grant the waiver for the municipality." She said if
these amendments were accepted, language would have to be added to
make a single wall heat exchanger safe, and that language has been
added on Work Draft Z: "Single wall heat exchangers may be used if
the (1) heat transfer medium is water, propylene type glycol, or
another essential nontoxic fluid having a toxicity rating or class
of one, as listed in Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Products,
Fifth Edition; (2) pressure of the heat transfer medium is limited
to a maximum of 30 pounds per square inch by an approved safety
relief valve; and (3) heat exchanger is prominently and permanently
labeled with instructions concerning (1)-(2) of this subsection."
She maintained that ethylene glycol is the problem, not single wall
heat exchangers, and that this language takes care of the ethylene
glycol problem. She added she would not put ethylene glycol in any
water system. She called upon the Department of Labor to testify.
Number 306
DWIGHT PERKINS, Special Assistant to the Commissioner of Labor,
introduced himself.
CHAIR JAMES asked him if the Department of Labor had any objections
to the language in Work Draft Z.
MR. PERKINS replied he had a problem with page 3, lines 2-3 of Work
Draft Z because he was not familiar with the Clinical Toxicology of
Commercial Products. He reiterated the department's position that
they would like to see the plumbing code adopted by regulation
rather than statute and then go out to public hearing in the
process of making possible changes to the code.
Number 375
CHAIR JAMES called the meeting back to order after a brief at ease
and referred to simplifying Work Draft Z, page 3, line 1, by
eliminating reference to the Clinical Toxicology of Commercial
Products.
MR. PERKINS said that would solve the confusion. Another solution
would be to adopt the Department of Environmental Conversation's
"A.W.W.A. Cross Control Manual." He said either solution would
meet Chair James' needs.
Number 405
CHAIR JAMES noted there were people to testify on teleconference,
and asked them to wait. She reiterated HB 224 had been filed for
the purpose of the Department of Labor putting the codes in. The
city of Fairbanks has a problem with the issue. Anchorage has only
500 single wall heat exchangers, whereas Fairbanks has more.
Anchorage has natural gas, and Fairbanks does not. She said she
cannot argue against the fact that double wall heat exchangers have
a lower risk factor, but she wondered what is the difference
between that risk factor and the language which says a single wall
heat exchanger is acceptable if the medium is water or propylene
glycol, the pressure is limited to 30 pounds of pressure in the
tank, with a relief valve, and that the heat exchanger is
prominently and permanently labeled with instructions as in (1) and
(2) of Draft Z. The problem that the double wall heat exchanger
hopes to fix is the use of ethylene glycol in the system. Her
language for a single wall heat exchanger excludes the use of
ethylene glycol in the system, and that would help Fairbanks. In
areas like Fairbanks where energy costs are extremely high, a small
change can make a big difference in the heating bill. Design
professionals and plumbing professionals and the Department of
Labor have testified they do not have a problem with that language,
so the committee should not either.
Number 463
CHAIR JAMES continued she had not lobbied the committee at all on
this issue, because she believes each issue should stand on its own
merit, and she asked the committee what they want. She said there
are three options. One option is to go back to the original bill
and leave out the entire issue of single wall versus double wall
heat exchangers. The second option is to take the language in the
amendments submitted by Representative Rokeberg. The third option
is to take her committee substitute, Draft Z, which solves the
problem for Fairbanks, Kodiak, and Valdez. She expressed
disappointment that the committee members kept leaving
intermittently because she had really wanted the full committee to
make a decision on the merits of each option. She observed several
committee members had left again, and while awaiting their return
she invited teleconference testimony.
Number 486
STEVE SHUTTLEWORTH, Building Official for the City of Fairbanks,
testified via teleconference, saying he had been there since 7:30
a.m. and would not now have time to say all he had wanted to say.
He said he supported Representative James' Work Draft Z, and the
city of Fairbanks would not support anything less than that. He
said he had been asked to demonstrate safety; he did so and his
testimony was discounted. He demonstrated cost and efficiency, and
it was discounted. He said after this experience with the public
input process, "you can imagine the feeling in this community."
Without Representative James' amendments, HB 224 represents too
much government, too much regulation, "and for whose benefit?" He
hoped the city of Fairbanks' determination to get this matter
resolved would not be underestimated.
Number 504
EUGENE RUTLAND, Executive Director for the Mechanical Contractors
of Fairbanks, testified via teleconference, in support of the
single wall heat exchanger amendment in Work Draft Z. His
association opposes the concept of HB 224 which allows the adoption
of only the Uniform Plumbing Code by regulation. The Uniform
Plumbing Code is being changed and no one knows exactly what it
will be.
Number 520
CHAIR JAMES noted the state of New York allows single wall heat
exchangers with the same language; they have about 4 million of
them. The state of New Jersey has assumed the National Building
Code, and they allow single wall heat exchangers, with this
language. This language is what makes single wall heat exchangers
safe. In addition, double wall heat exchangers are less efficient.
Number 540
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING said he appreciated Chair James' amendments
but noted it still relied upon people putting the right product in
the tank.
Number 550
MR. TIBBLES noted he had some information regarding efficiency and
cost. He had called the distributor for Amtrol heat exchangers and
had received a page from their catalog by FAX that morning. It
states double wall heat exchangers do not affect recovery, on the
new systems and new models.
Number 570
CHAIR JAMES said that might be true, but the cities of Fairbanks,
Kodiak and Valdez would incur tremendous expense if they had to buy
double wall heat exchangers to replace all their single wall heat
exchangers. This is a huge financial problem, and there have been
no problems with the single wall exchangers. She repeated the
three options for the committee.
Number 580
REPRESENTATIVE CAREN ROBINSON asked which draft was the Department
of Labor's draft.
CHAIR JAMES replied Draft W was the Department of Labor's draft.
She said her draft was Draft Z.
REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON asked to hear from the sponsor of the bill
which direction he believed the committee should go.
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING recommended the Labor and Commerce Committee
Substitute, Draft W, which contains additional language on page 3,
Section 4, allowing municipalities to be granted a waiver to the
plumbing code. It sets a higher standard by authorizing the
Department of Labor to adopt the current plumbing code but it also
allows flexibility for municipalities to be given a waiver to use
the single wall heat exchangers.
CHAIR JAMES asked Representative Kohring if he approved of the
amendments provided by Representative Rokeberg and himself,
amendments W.2 and W.3.
MR. TIBBLES said those amendments had been submitted before he had
done in-depth research the last two days on the safety issue.
Going back to the Labor and Commerce version would give time for
retrofits, so as not to punish the home owners, but would also set
a higher standard for future installations.
CHAIR JAMES asked if that meant they did not want those amendments
they had brought to her.
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING said they did not, in light of the
additional research accumulated in the last two days.
CHAIR JAMES said that meant they were back to the Committee
Substitute, Work Draft W.
Number 629
REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON asked if that meant they did not trust the
Department of Labor to look at the issue fairly and possibly grant
a waiver.
CHAIR JAMES responded by pointing out how much trouble they are
having in a legislative committee and saying an administrative
committee would have even less control. She said she personally
did not have that fear, after lengthy discussions with the
Department of Labor. But the people in Fairbanks, Kodiak, and
Valdez have had different experiences with the Administration than
she has, and they do not trust the public comment process because
they have participated in it and they have seen regulations come
out with no regard to public input. She can understand their lack
of trust.
Number 650
REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON said people in her community prefer
sticking with the Labor and Commerce version of the bill, adding it
offers the opportunity for discussion through the regulation
process. She observed the bill will receive a lot more debate as
it moves through the Senate, and she thought the basic goal of the
bill is excellent and it was important just to get it out of this
committee.
Number 660
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN apologized for "bouncing back and forth across
the hall" and reiterated that Chair James' version Z clearly
stating what fluid should be used takes care of safety concerns.
He added excluding villages of 2,500 people or less makes the
safety solutions in the other versions questionable; if they are
able to waive the demand for a double wall heat exchanger, then
other municipalities should have that same right. If the code is
adopted, this choice should be allowed. Otherwise the urban areas
are protected and the rural areas are ignored, and this "smacks in
the face of safety." It ought to be the other way around, if
anything. He would prefer version W, with amendments. He noted he
had to "run across the hall again."
Number 682
REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN said "Madam Chair, we either need to fish
or cut bait, because Joe and I are out of here in about 30
seconds."
Number 685
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING said he recommended accepting the original
committee substitute.
(Representatives Ogan and Green left the meeting.)
CHAIR JAMES stated, "We can't have a committee meeting with people
jumping up and down."
ADJOURNMENT
CHAIR JAMES adjourned the meeting at 9:58 a.m.
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